Revenge
“You can rent the space inside my mind.”
— She wants Revenge
Recently I read, somewhere or other, that revenge is simply part of the human condition. No matter how “good” or spiritual, or mature we are, all of us at some point or another wish to lash out, hurt, punish or get even with people who have hurt us or wronged us.
We want revenge.
Certainly across many conversations I have found this is true for many of us who are struggling to find our way through the complexity of family estrangement. We want to see family members hurt or suffer the way we have hurt or suffered. We want them to know how painful their behaviour has been. Inside ourselves we may become both judge and jury – and decide that we will not rest, be satisfied or heal until we are certain that circumstances have appropriately caused the other person to suffer and we ‘get even”.
Ironically, we can never truly know what is going on for the person we believe has wronged us. We don’t know if they are sorry or whether they have hurt and suffered in their turn. We don’t know what brought them to the point of causing us hurt and we will never truly know the long term implications that their choices and decisions will have had on their lives. Even if we had them on their knees in front of us, declaring their remorse and begging our forgiveness – it will not undo what was done, and there are no guarantees in apology.
Maybe it is true. Maybe the desire for revenge is a normal part of being human, however, it doesn’t mean that we have to fall victim to it or act upon our desires for it. Sure we can feel angry or hurt and we need to pay attention to these feelings but what is the goal? Do we want our attention caught up in fantasies of retribution, or do we want to move forward, put our focus on what is good, healthy and actually working in our lives? There is another saying that “what we put our attention on grows”. What is it that we want to be growing in our lives?
Revenge locks us into the past. As the quote above says, the desire for revenge allows someone who has hurt us, to take up or rent space in our thoughts, our hearts and our lives. From this place we can only see other people (and ourselves) as one dimensional, static creatures. People become nothing more than the mean thing they have done to us, and we become nothing more than their perennial victim. Absolutely we can hold others accountable for their actions and behaviour. We can expect them to be responsible. What we cannot do is force this to happen.
Some people use estrangement as a means to extract revenge. They create impossible distance as a means of showing the other person that their behaviour is unacceptable. When they discuss estrangement it is very clear that the objective is to punish. Seeking revenge through estrangement will not make you feel better. It will not help you to build a better life for yourself. It will not help you achieve your goals for healthy, happy relationships or for peace of mind and healing. Seeking revenge will do the opposite. It will hold us back, trap us in the past and in our pain.
We don’t have to travel down this road. At any time we are ready to put a greater value on our well being and healing than we are on our past we can stop. Walk away. Refuse to become mired in anger or hurt. We unhook from these perhaps natural, but toxic nonetheless, desires to see others hurt. We can trust that life will have a way of working on those other people and their behaviour, that we don’t have the time, energy or resources for. We can hope that they will learn their lesson, but we put our attention to the task of learning ours.
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Indifference to the individual who has acted maliciously, dishonestly and with cold callousness could well be the best action/non action to take.
I think this is true: the “desire for revenge is a normal part of being human”. And, I agree with this, “it doesn’t mean that we have to fall victim to it or act upon our desires for it.” That’s why distance has been so helpful in my situation. I’m not even in a position to act upon revenge and neither are they. Well, I suppose there’s gossip, but then, because of the distance, there’s nothing new to talk about. How did this happen? We moved an hour and a half away (but not as a direct result of the estrangement). Clearly that’s not an option for everyone, but wow, it solved a lot of problems for my husband and me right away. I also feel it minimized the impact it had on other family members and mutual friends and acquaintances. Now as far as Facebook… I benefited from leaving it.
Hi RKH,
The distance thing is interesting I think. In some respects it makes things easier, there is less internal debate about whether we will engage or not engage. For instance, I live in Australia these days, while most of my estranged family members are in Canada. There is no need to worry and wonder about whether I should spend time with them, it’s just not possible, I will never have to worry about one of them popping up where I least expect it, or am least prepared to deal with it. If I do choose somewhere down the track to engage, I will have plenty of time to ponder what I might want that to look like.
On the other hand, Distance seems to have a funny way of entrenching estrangement, even when you would choose otherwise. Differences that might be fairly easily overcome over a cup of coffee, or small tenuous steps to engage, simply cannot happen. Even in these days of easy communication via technology, distance often trumps desire.
When relationships are highly charged, physical distance can allow all involved parties to regain emotional equilibrium. That is a good thing. However, distance can also calcify highly charged emotions that we carry with us at the point we move away.
I suppose like most things that estrangement touches, physical distance is a personal thing. What works for one of us, may not work for another. And like most things, it’s rarely as simple as it appears on the surface!
As for Facebook, the great thing is the privacy settings!
Thank you for your comments. Take care,
Fiona
Fiona.. your posts are so well written and beautiful.
Are you estranged from anyone in your family?
your thoughts are so eloquent.. they must come from experience!
Thank you for this blog…
Hello AftonLady and that you so much for your kind words, they mean a great deal. Indeed I am estranged from a number of family members, in fact, estrangement is something of an intergenerational family legacy in our family! I sincerely hope that my voice of experience when coupled with my professional understandings allows me to write directly from my heart to yours.
Take care,
Fiona
“Even if we had them on their knees in front of us, declaring their remorse and begging our forgiveness – it will not undo what was done, and there are no guarantees in apology.”
“… the desire for revenge is a normal part of being human…do we want to move forward…Revenge locks us into the past
There is a defined and a refined process of recovery from injustice imposed arbitrarily on us, and revenge is indeed part and parcel of that, or at least the desire for it. One does not just drop the whole “affair” of imposed hurt and move on, unless one has an empy space where their mind, soul and spirit resides.
While it sounds good to “move on” and “get over it”, such statments belie the reality of the situation, one cannot and does not just move on nor is it possible. I know people who were emotionally abused in their earlier lives and such injustices are reawakened by present and future occurences that trigger the hurt, and pain caused years and even decades ago.
Just as learning, loving, and life itself is a voyage and not a harbor, so is revenge at some point in the experience of broekn relationships a given, or should I say, the thoughts of it, at least.
Hi Edward,
“One does not just drop the whole “affair” of imposed hurt and move on, unless one has an empy space where their mind, soul and spirit resides.”
There is a good deal of difference between actively seeking revenge – that is, to deliberately and with calculation hurt another person as a means of punishing for a hurt we have been dealt – and “just dropping” things. When we have been harmed, there truly is a process that we move through to come to resolution with it. I am not at all convinced that seeking revenge is part of that process, or particularly useful for some of the reasons I have outlined above.
Rather than looking at some false exhortation to “move on”and “get over it”- I prefer to consider what we must do to heal. If revenge was healing, I’d be plotting for it. However it isn’t. So for me, the bottom line is – what do I need to do to take care of myself and to heal, grow and create the best life for myself that I am able? Curiously, revenge never fits that equation.
Take care,
Fiona
Just the use of the word, “revenge” has highly charged emotional implications for me in the same sense that other words that you use in your writings here are highly charged as well. They trigger self-reflection and many negative memories. I’m keenly aware of my reactions, especially given how these words can so often be misused and the implications for people who do estrange. An example would be that its use has a very negative association similar to how someone may be accused of being “unforgiving” by the act of distancing, which for me is about self-protection. So some words are highly charged given how they are so often used—in manipulative and highly exploitative ways as a means to and end.
I never considered estrangement deployed as a type of revenge. For me creating distance has always been about self-protection and self-preservation, which is crucial to my emotional well-being. For some people it is the last resort to keep one sane when you don’t want to get sucked into relatives and their deeply destructive dramas—when the people you are saving your SELF from are aggressive, selfish and miserable, yet they don’t see themselves in that light. I find myself feeling less depressed, anxious and less prone to thoughts of behaving in ways that would be self-harming when my interactions with these people are severely limited or non-existent. I am aware though that it doesn’t completely rid myself of the problems–as estrangement creates its own set of problems.
Distance has always been about self-healing for me. I’m certain my family members would laugh and scoff at the idea, but then they’ve always minimized my feelings and denigrated me as being “too sensitive”, so they would not recognize or respect my need to self-protect. They don’t tend to see themselves as emotional bullies or abusive or their demands as unreasonable. Ditto for my in-laws who only evoke feelings of overwhelming sadness and despair.
I’ve also found that demonstrating “indifference” to the offending individual as Edward observes above tends to escalate behaviors in aggressive people.
Hi Karen,
Thanks for another well considered response. I am thinking about what you are saying about the use of highly charged words – and reflecting that any word that links in with estrangement has the potential to become highly charged, simply by virtue that they bump up against these incredibly powerful, core to self relationships that we don’t have in our lives.
Revenge is highly charged – yet, it’s a simple and effective word that captures, very effectively, the desire to get even. When I did a search for quotes around the word, it was interesting to see the two “camps”attached to the notion. One group sees revenge as a just response to injustice. For these people, it would seem that revenge is worth spending endless time planning for, engaging in and putting other things on hold for. Then there is another “camp” which says revenge is not what we at first glance expect it to be. That in seeking revenge, we make our lives be about it. When we are busy making our lives be about revenge, we are not busy doing a whole bunch of other things … like choosing to live well and heal — which as the saying goes, may be the greatest revenge of all.
If revenge is taken to mean exacting harm in the measure that we have been harmed, in order to redress injustice – I’m not sure there is a positive spin to that. If you can think of one, I’m open to considering it.
Oh yes estrangement is used as revenge! It would be nice to think that all of us who are estranged from our families are estranged because of the individual need to secure safety and well being. However, this is not the case. Most of us who estrange will say this is why we do it.
Yet, interestingly, when we are the estrangee, we never seem to think of it in quite the same way. So when we estrange its because we need to look after ourselves (and quite often this is true) but when other people estrange from us, their decision is generally seen as something unfathomable, something that is about them, and their inability to truly see or understand us.
I suppose we all want to see ourselves and our behaviour in the most favourable light. We do things because they make sense to us in the moment we are doing them (generally speaking) and this goes for everyone. Most people don’t see themselves as “emotional bullies” or see the things that they do as hurtful and harmful (oh, unless they are seeking revenge and being hurtful and harmful was the point of the whole thing in the first place). If we were to see our behaviour as unreasonable and without merit, most of us would not be doing it.
Everyone has a story. Everyone has a list of their justifications, rationalizations and excuses. It’s up to us to decide what to do with them; ours and theirs.
My twenty two cents worth.
Take care,
Fiona
I do agree with you that any word that links in with estrangement has the potential to become highly charged…so very true.
However, I was also thinking more broadly about specific word use, people’s reactivity and how problematic the use of particular words can be. Words are revealing and very powerful, not just in families, but in the context of culture as well. They become imbued with meaning to such a degree that it can stop a conversation before it starts. I have a good friend who jests with me about my focus on improper word usage and he’s a highly effective communicator, yet when he chooses to use specific words his message gets lost. I’m not trying to criticize or to act like an English teacher when I observe how much communication suffers and the impact to relationships when highly charged words laden with emotional baggage are used or misused.
There are a thousand different ways to tell a story to evoke a response—an emotion. Often facts are incidental, even if they remain constant or even if the facts become distorted, as in some being omitted—all through the use of words and how a story is told. I’ve learned this by observing reactions in people and telling a story in a different way, but not altering facts. I’m also thinking about some of your earlier thoughts about families and the stories they tell about each other.
As someone who has felt not only misunderstood, but also vilified, marginalized and maligned by words—this is a deep, many layered and often very painful subject for me. In my situation, I am not so convinced of the truth of this statement for what I experience and observe, “If we were to see our behaviour as unreasonable and without merit, most of us would not be doing it.”
In some families words are quite effectively used as weapons of destruction and people can do a great deal of damage with words. People use words to impugn other people’s character—gossiping about others behind their backs and getting other relatives to take sides. That is just one way people set about to damage relationships with words. People use words to emotionally abuse others. It’s been a very effective strategy employed by my sister-in-law whose twisted jealousy, manipulation and toxic narcissism meted out words to the effect of pouring oil on fire, burning the house down and everybody in it. Still her brother with his multiple burns and wounds contorts himself into a willing participant. He can’t seem to help his placating nature—and in his approval seeking way he scurries after the enticing crumbs on her table hungrily consuming them as if he’s dining on a full meal. Is it any wonder that I may succumb to an occasional thought of revenge?
I could go on at some length about your points here too, but I will leave you with this and say that perhaps it’s best if I try to convey my thoughts in additional posts.
“…what do I need to do to take care of myself and to heal, grow and create the best life for myself that I am able? Curiously, revenge never fits that equation.”
Many people are predisposed to revenge when they have been the objects of injustice and I am one of the crowd on that score. It is a natural and ingrained mechanism of justice that a perpetrator pay for his crimes against others. I am convinced that revenge is a word that has been used to replace the word “justice” in a society that has not only lost the ability to make the right moral decisions, but even were it able, would not have the moral courage to implement those decisions.
Even the Holy Bible recognizes the principles of vengeance but as validated and left to God. (I will repay, vengeance is mine saith the Lord”)
Certainly a modicom of justice is due the victim, and is not the ability and substance to “heal, grow and create the best life for myself that I am able” presupposed on the idea and ideals of justice?
For the record, estangement is a form of revenge as well as a necessary response mechanism to isolate oneself from toxic people. Society needs to move back towards revenge(justice) in the legal system to not only protect society, but to work in the best interests of the victims. So called “no fault” divorce would be the first great starting point for sure, and would establish that there is a penalty for imposing emotional hurt, pain, devastation and betrayal on others.
Hi Edward,
Thanks for your response again. “It is a natural and ingrained mechanism of justice that a perpetrator pay for his crimes against others.”
Is it? And who decides what that justice looks like? How far is far enough? When the person who hurts us is suffering, does it undo the wrong? Do we just feel better because another human being is hurting? And how do we know that they aren’t hurting? And how can we ever presume to know what took them to the point of causing harm? Damaged people do damage. Where do we begin to wreck our vengence? How far back do we go?
I’ll have to agree to disagree that revenge = justice.
I am not religious so I won’t debate scripture – however, I think that line you quoted was God saying he would be the instrument of vengeance – not that all his people should engage in vigilante vengeance.
As much as I feel it would be nice sometimes to see those who are incredibly destructive get some of their own, I am not convinced that I have any true ability to know what that might look like, or be able to decide when that has happened. How would I know that they haven’t experienced consequences that I know nothing about? I need only consider my own experiences where I have hurt another person – and experienced the fall out of that and suffered – to know this is not only possible, but quite probable.
In addition, I know I am far from blameless. I too have been hurtful and caused harm, intentional or not. I would like to believe compassion is a possibility. I work to give that, which I would like to receive.
Finally the greatest “justice” for me, has been to stand up 7 times after being knocked down 6 — and ya know, to learn to remove myself from harm’s way has been a pretty valuable lesson too. I have no idea what might be going on for those who have wronged me. No idea if they have suffered. No idea if anything I could do would make them suffer. What I do know is healing is possible. Living well is possible. Building loving, caring and worthwhile relationships is possible. Whose to say that is not justice?
I do not feel estrangement is a form of revenge (tho I have certainly seen it used as such). What I have also seen is that estrangement carries massive collateral damage, and many times innocent people are caught up in its wake. I also have seen that many people who choose to estrange in order to punish another person, go on to suffer themselves – many times because they refuse to heal and move forward, becoming trapped in ruminating on their suffering and plotting another person’s pain. Is this justice? Well, On this issue, I’m afraid we disagree.
Cheers,
Fiona
Fiona said, on July 3, 2011 at 1:32 pm Hi Edward,
Thanks for your response again. “It is a natural and ingrained mechanism of justice that a perpetrator pay for his crimes against others.”
Is it? And who decides what that justice looks like? How far is far enough? When the person who hurts us is suffering, does it undo the wrong? Do we just feel better because another human being is hurting? And how do we know that they aren’t hurting? And how can we ever presume to know what took them to the point of causing harm? Damaged people do damage. Where do we begin to wreck our vengence? How far back do we go?
__________________________
Good points Fiona, yet everyone has a responsibility to own their actions, and while I know damaged people do damage, that is a statement of reality and should not be utilized as an excuse for hurting others just because one has been damaged oneself. What about the victim? Are they not entitled to security of the person and what presupposition do abusive people use that legitimizes their toxic impositional behavior imposed on others who are innocent? Should they not be liable to a penalty? Justice and logic says a resounding yes. Were people more inclined to confront those who are malignantly toxic immediately when they started their unacceptable behavior, they would soon learn that there is a price to be paid for their malevolence.
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Fiona said:
I’ll have to agree to disagree that revenge = justice.
I am not religious so I won’t debate scripture – however, I think that line you quoted was God saying he would be the instrument of vengeance – not that all his people should engage in vigilante vengeance.
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…and I agree with you in your accurate analysis that God indeed was saying what you said He said. The principle of vengeance/justice was and is amply demonstrated scripturally. As you are, so am I, that is, I am also not religious as religion is a man made entity that like humanity, is inherently wrought with error. What I call “disorganized religion is in essence in many cases, thousands of groups all claiming that they are right and all others are worng, and historically are the biggest perpetrators of injustice past and present. Their views better qualify them as cults, as they take scriptures and twist them to suit their own dizzy doctrines. we note that Jesus Christ saved his harshest words and condemnation for the religious leaders of His day.
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Fiona said:
As much as I feel it would be nice sometimes to see those who are incredibly destructive get some of their own, I am not convinced that I have any true ability to know what that might look like, or be able to decide when that has happened. How would I know that they haven’t experienced consequences that I know nothing about? I need only consider my own experiences where I have hurt another person – and experienced the fall out of that and suffered – to know this is not only possible, but quite probable.
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Did you intentionally hurt another, which most do, or was it an err on your part? Often people who intentionally hurt others do not realize that the hurt returns to them many times over but after the fact are riddled with guilt and remorse. Yet this does not make what they did acceptable, but unfortunately this is the state of affairs we exist in. Most hurt is planned and/or a natural fall-out of actions that were made selfishly with no consideration to the best interests of others. As you, I do not know if people who have hurt others have or have not suffered consequences for their malignant actions but I do know that hurting another in ways that are not addressable by law, are still in essence, acts of criminality and the line between a narcissist and a psycho is fine indeed.
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Fiona said:
In addition, I know I am far from blameless. I too have been hurtful and caused harm, intentional or not. I would like to believe compassion is a possibility. I work to give that, which I would like to receive.
Finally the greatest “justice” for me, has been to stand up 7 times after being knocked down 6 — and ya know, to learn to remove myself from harm’s way has been a pretty valuable lesson too. I have no idea what might be going on for those who have wronged me. No idea if they have suffered. No idea if anything I could do would make them suffer. What I do know is healing is possible. Living well is possible. Building loving, caring and worthwhile relationships is possible. Whose to say that is not justice?
I do not feel estrangement is a form of revenge (tho I have certainly seen it used as such). What I have also seen is that estrangement carries massive collateral damage, and many times innocent people are caught up in its wake. I also have seen that many people who choose to estrange in order to punish another person, go on to suffer themselves – many times because they refuse to heal and move forward, becoming trapped in ruminating on their suffering and plotting another person’s pain. Is this justice? Well, On this issue, I’m afraid we disagree.
Cheers,
Fiona
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Fiona, I am also not blameless, but I judge people by how they treat others and the worth of a person is determined by how they especially interact with those of a lower station in life than they themselves. Upon these merits or lack thereof, I mete out my treatment of others as they deserve.
I also have determined that it is best to remove oneself from harm’s way but I often give a good kick in the hinder parts to the individuals whose charges I have sidestepped, as they pass by, knowing that this tends to dissuade them from making another pass at me. I call that a form of justice.
Yes estrangement can cause massive collateral damage but one has to decide if that is worse than what one would suffer to not move towards estrangement.
Plotting revenge is not as effective nor as acceptable as swatting the bee that has stung one, as it settles things once and for all. The bee has stung, the recipient has imposed his just reaction to the pain.
I have often heard religious zealots and busybodies demand that the victim forgive the perp and these same zealots condemn with every breath the thoughts of revenge. Within each of us lie the capacity to desire justice which is translated as revenge to denote negativety. The popularity of justice prevailing in the mind of many is well demonstrated by the popularity of movies such as the Death Wish series starring Charles Bronson decades ago, and the more recent Rambo type movies.
The legal system does not always satisfy justice nor does the system in many cases, seek true justice. The rule of law exists but is dodged by many who escape punishment. The same exists in our personal lives where narcississ exist and impose their malignant behaviors on innocent people, and I ask just who is it then that is responsible for justice being effected?
Thank you Fiona for your comments, they are as always valued for their depth and considered in my mind, for as we both know, learning is a voyage, not a harbor, and in this discourse, you have said things to me that have more caused me to embrace you with more respect.
Always Edward
Hi Edward,
I could go on at some length about your points, but perhaps I will make posts of them instead
Cheers for your sharing!
FIona
Hello Fiona
I tend to reflect on the natural responses of so called humanity to things they encounter in their existence, and consider if there is a majority identical response to a given situation and if so, is it wrong or right.
The natural attitude today is generally that of “I am entitled to my entitlements and will get them at any cost to others”. In the workplace, this gives way to all kinds of ugly behavior ranging from sexual harassment to character assassination.
I have observed that this state of affairs in life with many suffering injustice leads to people wanting to set things right but many are too insecure and fearful to tell it like it is. This leads to repressed anger and desire for vengeance, in other words, justice by way of the perpetrator being seen as suffering punishment.
Were people more directly bold to tell it like it is, there would be a lot fewer people practicing their ugliness and imposing hurt/pain/injustice on others.
I know you are not inclined to scriptural references but in this case as in all others encountered in life, human nature is addressed accurately by the words, “And God saw that the thoughts of man were on evil continually and it grieved God that He had made man…”
I once knew a man I considered almost perfect, in his conduct, outlook, and character. I started one day to communicate this to him and he stopped me short, warning me that I should not do this, thus indicating his belief in his imperfections and shortcomings. I have known a much younger woman for 13 years and style her also as perfect but that makes her uncomfortable, yet she is still one I quite admire, cherish and even love in the proper sense of the platonic.
Whether we like it or not, in life, it is not a matter of IF TROUBLE COMES, but WHEN IT COMES. We are besought with many challenges today, and none more vital to our well being than dealing with others in our everyday existences. I define life as nothing more or less than a series of interactions with others, and this reality demands we utilize every device, every tool, every resource to keep ourselves safe from the machinations of manipulative and selfish people, within even family circles as well as peers, co-workers and acquaintances.
I quite value you and your perspectives, and see you as one seeking to address issues as you walk through life. I will offer to you something you already know, and that is in dealing with people, and situations, all is not as it meets the eye.
I would again ecourage you and tell you also that time is the coin of life, take care that others do not spend it for you. I feel time interacting with you, eihter agreeing on your perspectives or not, is well worth it.
Always Edward
Thank you, Fiona, Karen and Edward for expressing your views so eloquently, and contributing to this very thought-provoking debate. I find my own feelings in many of your descriptions, where I had not been able to identify them on my own. This is of immense value to me as I come to terms with my own issues of estrangement, and I am grateful to you all for sharing your thoughts as you do.
Most sincerely
Debbie
Thank you to you as well Debbie.
I seldom ever hear a word of appreciation from anyone–it’s a very rare thing indeed. I’m glad that you find value and that this discussion has been helpful to you.
Hello Karen
This discussion, and in fact everything that I have read so far on this website, has indeed been of great value to me. It has given me much with which I can identify, and a great deal more to take away and think about.
I am new to Estranged, and will be around for a good while yet, I think. So we will most likely speak again!
Kind regards
Debbie
I’m back again to try to convey some additional thoughts—
“We want to see family members hurt or suffer the way we have hurt or suffered. We want them to know how painful their behaviour has been.”
As to revenge—some people act on their desires of revenge—other people don’t. Thoughts are not actions and I think sometimes people conflate the two and imbue a thought with as much “negativity” as an action. I don’t. I think there’s great value in paying attention to “darker” emotions those seen as negative or unpleasant. I suspect a good many people are not even honest about harboring such thoughts given the unhelpful reactions and responses from others and the judgments of “negativity” and shame attached to having such thoughts, let alone being allowed to openly express them. I would strongly suspect that they probably also would be chastized and admonished to “move on” and to “get over it”, just for attempting to even be honest about such thoughts.
As to THOUGHTS of revenge I wonder could it be that maybe what we really want is for the people who hurt us to feel our pain, and that desire is rooted in wanting them to feel empathy and understanding. And given that empathy is so lacking from them revenge is how we exact it from them.
It is a way to force people who indulge in selfish, destructive behaviors, which created the emotional suffering to begin with—to own those negative behaviors. In other words, thoughts of revenge is exacting empathy from them and forcing them to take responsibility—that which we cannot get willfully or even honestly from them. Of course, just as one cannot force people to act kind, respectful or with decency, empathy and compassion towards others—one cannot force people to be responsible.
“If revenge is taken to mean exacting harm in the measure that we have been harmed, in order to redress injustice – I’m not sure there is a positive spin to that. If you can think of one, I’m open to considering it.”
I’m less concerned with the merits of whether something is positive or negative—I tend to look at behaviors that way as having positive or negative outcomes, but not thoughts or emotions. If I consider revenge as seeking justice then I see value and merit in standing up for one’s rights. I’m well aware that standing up for one’s rights can be interpreted in some families as “rocking the boat” and and act of disloyalty, betrayl and also revenge. In other words the meanings can be twisted and taken out of context. I see this not only in families, but also more broadly in our culture—revenge misinterpreted and imbued with negative meaning, and I feel it does a great disservice to people who have been victimized.
Hello Debbie
Loneliness is often experienced by people who are misunderstood, and misjudged. This happens when one is involuntarily estranged even though they are innocent of any wrong doing. The interaction here with others perhaps gratifies you as you realize there are others who have the same emotions and feelings, and who have and do experience the same as you.
In spite of the present age of communication, there are lots of lonely people, and one can be in a crowd and still be lonely of one is misunderstood and misjudged by the “herd”.
I am pleased that you benefitted from moot points I made, that were and are of course inferior to Karen and Fiona, and hope that you experience a degree of relief from what you are suffering in your pertinent situation.
Edward
Thanks, Edward
Yes, it is that sense of identification I find in these blogs and discussions which is so comforting. Even my oldest, dearest confidante has told me: Enough, already, time to move on!
But I cannot allow you to think your contributions are in any way inferior to those of Fiona and Karen. They just express a different viewpoint sometimes, one which often reflects my own thoughts and feelings very accurately. And it wouldn’t be much of a discussion if we all thought the same way:-)
I only discovered Estranged a couple of weeks ago, and have already gained enormous benefit from what I have read here. For which I am very grateful to all of its contributors.
Kind regards
Debbie
Hello Debbie,
“Yes, it is that sense of identification I find in these blogs and discussions which is so comforting. Even my oldest, dearest confidante has told me: Enough, already, time to move on!”
I would find this extremely hurtful and an attitude that is lacking in empathy. It would not only convey a lack of caring on their part, but also it would stifle the honest expression of my emotions and that would create an atmosphere where I wouldn’t feel emotionally safe. When I can’t feel emotionally safe I loose a huge incentive to even be in a relationship where my needs do not get met and not only that, but the result is a strained, phony and artificial relationship, if one could even call it a relationship. It is a huge emotional red flag for me which clearly states to “move on” and get away from them.
I don’t know if this is what you intended to express or not. Those behaviors would create a lot of distance because my response would be one of self-protection, which I feel is healthy. One can continue on in relationships which are limited, but it is important to be aware of what those limitations impose on our happiness and well-being. I’m not very incentivized by people making demands on me emotionally in ways in which they don’t recognize or they do, but don’t care about how hurtful or damaging their behaviors are. The consequences to me are far too great.
Hello Karen
Your perspectives by way of your last offering are accurate and aptly define/identify what I see and feel as well, although I did not focus on this until you mentioned it.
Thank you gal.
Edward
Hello Edward,
Thank you. I appreciate hearing this because as I said previously to Debbie it is so infrequent that someone ever expresses appreciation, let alone attempts to relate. I’m more used to constantly feeling under assault from the unreasonable demands of needy, self-absorbed people always trying to unload, bombard and dump their problems onto me along with their inappropriate emotions, despite me always enforcing tight boundaries. My way of enforcing boundaries on selfish, thoughtless violators has been erecting walls of distance. It feels good to have someone finally express appreciation and also recognition.
Hello Debbie
You are again generous in your words towards me, thank you.
There is little that is more frustrating than being misjudged and misunderstood, by those who do not see but by those who WILL NOT SEE. While any situation involving two people in a relationship disagreeing, there is usually one person more at fault than the other. When the herd gangs up and points bony fingers of misjudgment at that largely innocent person, it creates despair, and eventually anger in that person.
I see this happening to many people, and we all know that subjectivety cast it’s long shadow on the person at fault who oft refuses to admit it, and instead assumes an air of arrogance and entitlement towards themselves in theiir wrong doing.
I hope that has not happened to you, and if it does, that you will accept there are others in the same circumstance, and that you are in good company.
I am pleased to see you have gained a modicom of support here and that it comes in all probability it comes from the feeling of finally being understood and embraced by the warm arms of empathy. I regret any hurt that you have suffered, and would have you know that there is inherently here others who have and are facing the discomfort of imposed hurt from individuals who choose to blame and deny instead of taking responsibility for their actions.
As to Karen and Fiona, I am sure you will find the depth of their perspectives come from much thought and perhaps even like mine, from an experential perspective. Happiness to you Debbie.
Edward
Hello again Edward
Thank you for the thought you put into your replies to me.
It seems you understand my situation perfectly
Thanks to this site, and your kind support, I am already experiencing the validation and understanding of which you speak. I feel I am making progress in my acceptance of both my circumstances, and myself in them, at last.
Kind regards
Debbie
Hello Debbie:
I would focus on what Karen said to you as she delineates a very important point I also agree with.
I do not think any “confidante” has the right to set limits on time it takes for you to get past items in your existence that have hurt you. It is YOUR choice and things have to move according to YOUR timetable of healing and NOBODY else’s.
It has to be all about you as the person hurt, and it is you alone who will know when it is time to move on. Nobody can read your mind and I believe that one who is seeking to help you has to eb there to encourage, understand and empathize, and to let you take baby steps if that is what you need to do. There can be NO strong arming, or set timetables EXCEPT one’s YOU decide.
A doctor would NEVER take a cast off until the bone was mended nor stop antibiotic treatments unless the attacking bacteria were neutralized. I am sure you get the correlation and perhaps you will see what Karen and I are saying.
Always Edward
Hello Edward,
Thank you to you too Edward. You express yourself differently than I do, yet I still learn and find great value in what you say too. What you summarize above is what I’ve consistently experienced–other aggressive, self-absorbed people who constantly try to impose and set limits on how they think I should feel and that includes timetables, etc., even for GRIEF. Everyone wants to push you to feel happy and they demonstrate a complete lack of tolerance towards any other emotion. That creates more problems and intensifies the loneliness and sense of isolation. These same types of people also demonstrate a total lack of tolerance towards me for honestly expressing any other emotion than what they think I should feel. I’ve been consistently dismissed as “too sensitive” when I’ve tried to just talk about my emotions. Yet, these same people have bombarded me with all of their “negativity” and unhappiness. Distance in the form of self-protection is the result because trying to reason or use logic with these types of clueless, oblivious people doesn’t work.
When relationships, and I hesitate to even call it a relationship, deteriorate into something that feels emotionally unsafe, artificial and phony it also feels damaging and toxic. I just can’t feel much incentive to stay in a relationship when my needs do not get met, even if selfish, destructive people have the unreasonable expectation that I should. Some limits within relationships I can negotiate, because most relationships do have some form of limits, but others I simply derive too little emotionally to even try to sustain them–they take too much work for the very little that I get out of them and that lack of balance in my mind is self-damaging. It is probably why I feel such hopelessness and despair around such types of people, and why at times, I can feel self-harming and in very deeply desperate moments even suicidal.
For me that constant rush to happiness is much like the analogy that you used above about a doctor taking the cast off before the bone is mended. There are too many people who inflict damage on relationships by trying to silence people.
Dear Karen and Edward
You are both absolutely right about my friend’s insensitivity – I did indeed find it hurtful, and now feel that I can no longer risk talking to her about this issue. Which is one of the reasons that I find E-stranged and these discussions with you so valuable.
Best regards
Debbie
Hello Karen
Yes we seem to be of one accord, two different species of songbirds have their own unique trill, but they are both pleasing to the ear.
Always Edward
Hello Debbie
Feeling understood dispels a lot of things, among them loneliness, and helps to vanquish pain and sorrow. You are talking to two people here who have an experential perspective on what you have/are suffering. Even the worst hurt will eventually pass. It may leave scars, but it will pass.
Always Edward
i have found this article to be so helpful as i have now joined the many estranged out there. my sadness is overwhelming, i lost my mom, dad & little brother to death in the last year and my twin sister has decided, for some unknown reason, that she wants me out of her life forever. if i knew what i could have done that was so horrible to have her leave me when i was just beginninjg to grieve and really needed the support of a family memeber so bad, maybe i could understand better, but there is none i know of. im so depressed even with therapy and anti-depressant i am still overwhelmed. no money involved at all either, which is why many sibling fight when someone in the family dies.
i feel like im not alone so much now, thank you